Post Thunderbolts* Thoughts

[andraste]

Yesterday I went and saw Thunderbolts*, which was absolutely delightful! While I haven't been down on recent MCU stuff like a lot of people, I did think this was a very strong entry, one of my favourite things they've ever done. Excellent ensemble cast, and it maintained a good blend of action and comedy while also dealing with some serious themes. Definitely recommended.

As usual there is both a mid-credits and post-credits scene, the latter of which left me speculating ...



So we find out via a team conversation that Sam Wilson is not happy about the New Avengers and his forming his own version. It makes perfect sense that he'd feel that way. The U.S. government was already on thin ice with him after he found out about Isiah Bradley, and then Brave New World happened and now they've got a team made up of former assassins, a disgraced Russian supersoldier and John fucking Walker on the Wheaties boxes calling themselves Avengers. Hardly surprising that Sam doesn't see Bucky's side of it.

However, this leaves us with a conundrum: who is even going to be in Sam's team? Not much point yelling 'Avengers assemble!' if there's nobody to rally. I assume Falcon is a given, probably Ant-Man too, but who else?

It's not that the MCU is short on superheroes! But once you take out all the people who are dead (Tony, Natasha and Wanda), retired (Clint and Bruce), in space (Thor and Carol), in space and also another dimension (Monica), busy doing other important jobs (Stephen, Wong and Shuri) the list of potential recruits starts to look a bit thin. Now eliminate all the people Sam doesn't know or wouldn't ask or who would say no even if he did ask (Daredevil, Moon Knight, She-Hulk, Shang-Chi, Star-Lord, Spider-Man because of the mindwipe, Vision because Sam presumably still thinks he's dead.) Meanwhile Kamala is out there forming her own youth team with Kate (and maybe Riri and/or Cassie?) further shrinking the potential roster. It's not like he can just pop down to the beach and ask Namor to be an Avenger.

I think that for maximum comedy value it should turn out that Sam's squad is just himself, Joquin and Scott. Then we end up with one team full of ex-black ops losers and one that doesn't even fill up a standard size car. Maximum opportunities for everyone to roast each other, and a good reason for them to combine the team that has actual credibility with the team that has (wo)manpower to fight the greater threat once everyone gets over themselves. Hopefully in tandem with the Fantastic Four some people who have arrived back from space or taken a break from their regular gigs, because it's probably going to take more than punching, shooting, wings and Ant-Man's power set to beat Doctor Doom ...

Comments

[selenak]

I think that for maximum comedy value it should turn out that Sam's squad is just himself, Joquin and Scott. Then we end up with one team full of ex-black ops losers and one that doesn't even fill up a standard size car. Maximum opportunities for everyone to roast each other, and a good reason for them to combine the team that has actual credibility with the team that has (wo)manpower to fight the greater threat once everyone gets over themselves.

I support this plan and so do the writers. :) BTW, though, why do you think Moon Knight would say no if Sam asked (provided, that is, that Sam would somehow learn about them)? I mean, I could see Stephen at least being all for supporting Sam's Captain America, and depending on the threat, Marc being on board as well. They must have worked out by now about their third alter and Khonshu, so it's not that they would still be unaware a part of them has ongoing access to superpowers.

[andraste]

I think Steven and Marc - and even Jake - would be up for a temporary world saving alliance, but I can't see Marc agreeing to actually join a team unless he'd made a lot of progress on working with others (and also himself). The Avengers are also very public-facing, as Val kept saying - they don't really do secret identities over there, and I think that would be a big problem for Marc since he's unlikely to want the world press asking a lot of awkward questions about his past. Even though Steven would probably LOVE to be an Avenger.

I don't think Sam would regard Moon Knight as a great candidate, either, although that would depend a lot on exactly how much he knew about him. I think he'd be unlikely to try and recruit someone just because they've got superpowers and are beating up criminals at night, and he'd be even more reluctant if he knew who Marc was and had read his record. (On the other hand, if they DID actually end up working together during a world-saving emergency I think he'd turn around fast, much as I expect him to do with Yelena and the rest of the team once he actually sees them in action and realizes they are the good guys. But I think Steven would still get outvoted two personalities to one when it came to joining the team. Obviously what Sam should actually do is ask Scarlet Scarab, assuming Layla has accepted Tawaret's power on a longer-term basis ...)

I can't imagine the circumstances under which he would join up, but Moon Knight would actually fit in way better with the New Avengerz, since 'ex-military, used to do questionable black ops work, profound mental health challenges, shady boss who lies a lot' is pretty much their whole thing. And I bet Steven and Bob would get along!

[selenak]

LOL, all true, plus Bob might want to talk with Steven and Marc about the whole being a system thing. (And having yet another personality they may or may not talk to at this point.)

What would Khonshu think of Val? Competition? Ally? Needs to be eliminated being too much on the evil side of things? How does he get along with Bast in the MCU, since with his Egyptian origin, he may regard Val's attempted colonialism re: Wakanda (if Wakanda as Bast's territory is a kind of cousin nation) as worse than her other sins?

[andraste]

Yeah, both of them could use some support from someone who has been through similar experiences. At least Marc never did meth! (That we know of.)

I have no idea what they would say to each other but Khonsu and Val would be a fascinating combination for sure. I feel like Val is so good at convincing people to do questionable things for the greater good that she'd at least convince him not to take her out immediately. Look at all these morally questionable but ultimately well-meaning people with excellent combat skills she has access to, any one of whom would be good at protecting people who travel at night!

[silverflight8]

Yeah I enjoyed it a lot! Yelena was SO good and the characters which I went in disliking (Walker, kind of Alexei) I didn't mind so much. The movie definitely knows Walker is kind of a jerk and Alexei is mildly embarrassing, lol.

I definitely think they're headed for a Doctor Doom opposing mega team. Thanks for the roundup on the other superheros, I kind of lost track of a bunch of them!

[andraste]

Yeah I enjoyed it a lot! Yelena was SO good and the characters which I went in disliking (Walker, kind of Alexei) I didn't mind so much. The movie definitely knows Walker is kind of a jerk and Alexei is mildly embarrassing, lol.

I think it helps a lot that they don't excuse anything Walker did before or tone down his general assholery. Insofar as they make him a sympathetic character it's by giving him some context and letting him step up when the team needs him. So he continues to be an outstanding jerk, but he's also the second Thunderbolt into the group hug! And I loved Yelena's cringe when she realized that, yeah, her incredibly embarrassing dad had come to save her and she's going to have to introduce him to these people and get in his dumb not-very-bullet-proof limo unless she wants to walk home.

Thanks for the roundup on the other superheros, I kind of lost track of a bunch of them!

There are so many of them! And yet so few who are likely to answer Sam's phone calls.

[silverflight8]

Yeah! He's a jerk AND decides to do good things now, they coexist, instead of this act erases all of the bad things I did. It does make me laugh a bit that Yelena's murder count is undoubtedly several magnitudes higher but I find her infinitely less irritating, I simply support women's wrongs, ok

[andraste]

Look, Yelena routinely gets through entire conversations without randomly insulting people who don't deserve it, it's no wonder we're more forgiving of her!

[silverflight8]

A very good point well made 🤔